Conversation with Vikki and Deb

5/14

Recently, I attended the civil wedding of Vikki and Deb, two wonderful women from Oklahoma who have been together since Good Friday, 1982. Vikki is the other Co-Moderator of More Light Presbyterians. You can read more about their wedding here. We had the following conversation over breakfast the weekend of their wedding in the Green Mountain Inn dining room overlooking the main street of Stowe, VT.

How has your personal journey to civil marriage in Vermont strengthened or challenged your faith?

Vikki: I love the phrase “I have come to understand” because that so perfectly describes what has happened for me as I have moved through all the phases of discerning myself as lesbian and Christian. There was never any question that God loves and accepts me, so this journey has confirmed and strengthened my faith.

Deb: I think your work with More Light has strengthened that sense.

Vikki: Yes. I feel so called by God to service in More Light.

Deb: And it has deepened your understanding. You have become more introspective. You worry less about what other people think.

Vikki: There is something so freeing about coming out. If someone has a problem with my being lesbian, it is their problem, not ours. I used to be a people-pleaser, but not anymore.

Deb: My faith is a little different — I started where Vikki ended up. Others never dictated my personal faith. I believe that God is inside me; no one can take that away. This is my armor against what churches or others may say. My turning points in faith were in my early life in the Baptist Church when I rejected the Church as an authority over me.

Meeting Vikki, a person of strong faith, taught me a lot. I struggled with having a faith I can describe. She said, “Take what you use and leave the rest.” That freed me to choose, and I could feel easy doing that with her.

What is one of the defining moments in your life as a Christian?

Deb: My first defining moment was a negative one, unfortunately, but it helped me know that a Christian is one who acts like Jesus, not one who believes a particular thing. The second important moment was meeting Gordon Edwards and joining First Presbyterian Church of Stillwater, a church filled with love and wonderful people.

Vikki: When I was asked to be an elder, Deb and I had been together about ten years. I was concerned about what would happen if someone found out about us. In prayer, I realized it was not the committee that was calling me, but God through them. The only thing I could say to that was “Who am I that I should say no to God?”

Do you have a story of a person who embodies Christ’s teachings?

Vikki and Deb: Gordon Edwards, the minister at First Stillwater!

Vikki: Gordon is a loving, gracious —

Deb: — kind, gentle person.

Vikki: When he came to our church as pastor, I could tell from his preaching and prayers that he was an inclusive person. Before the General Assembly that year, I decided to go to him because he was going and I knew that GLBT inclusion would be addressed that year. I just wanted him to know that there were GLBT people in our congregation. I was so afraid — I can’t believe now how terrified I was to say this to him.

His response was to share with me a stack of newsletters from an organization called Presbyterians for Lesbian and Gay Concerns, the precursor to More Light. Gordon knew Chris Glaser, and I was head of the United Ministries of Stillwater at the time, so Gordon helped us bring in Chris. We worked him ragged going to OSU classes, a PFLAG meeting and a public panel. That was my introduction to More Light Presbyterians and service through it.

Deb: Gordon was the first minister I ever met who did not tell me how to think. He is thoughtful, insightful and errs on the loving side.

Vikki: We started a Bible study for GLBT people in the church. One friend from the Church of Christ stayed curled in the fetal position the first three times he came to it. He had been so wounded by his church trying to heal him when he did not need to be healed. Now he does diversity training, knowing that he is a beloved child of God.

Is there a prayer or meditation that helps you make it through trying times?

Vikki: One Scripture passage I have loved is Galatians 3:27-28, “As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.” When I was leading worship at St. Andrew’s Presbyterian Church, I would use this passage and add “gay or straight.”

I also love the verse that says, “See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called the children of God; and that is what we are” (1 John 3:1). When I was putting the rainbow scarves around people’ necks at General Assembly in San Jose, I would always begin by addressing him or her with, “Beautiful child of God.”

In your mind, what are the Biblical foundations for LGBT inclusion in the church?

Deb: I Corinthians 13 is a favorite of mine and it was really special for me to have it read in our wedding Thursday night. I also love Romans 8 where it says, “Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rules, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:38-39).

What can we do to foster dialogue and build bridges with people with different views on inclusion?

Vikki: We have to be who we are, our authentic selves. I reached a point where I could not continue having friendships with people when they did not know my full self.

Deb: We do not need to protect people from knowing who we are. How many people say, “I don’t know a gay person”? That comes from being protected, and it is not kind or loving to protect people in this way from the truth. Our approach is about being authentic.

What would you say to those Christians who have a different view on inclusion?

Deb: I would talk about many other things and have a glass of wine with them. There is no way to change minds except by the witness of how I live. I believe in the good in people and trust that, at some point, they will come to understand.

Vikki: I would probably say, “Here’s how I experience God and what I believe: God blesses me and Deb and calls me to do God’s work. God doesn’t care about my sexuality.” I do think it is important to witness about this. I come out a lot now as lesbian because it is an important witness. I want to share this joy.